Like - if you're using MMHC? Sometimes, you have to do with less. use the following search parameters to narrow your results: Before posting, you may want to search and read below to see if your question has already been answered: ♥ Join our Discord Server to start chatting. NIOD will give you more packaging, and the packaging is cool. If you sit down with them and say "what are you actually trying to say" you'll get a straightforward message. But apparently they also include "amino isolates," along with this fermented mix of something. Um, retinoids aren't really that kind of acid (they are in a very technical sense, as the molecular name is retinoic acid, but retinoids bind to dedicated receptors, and it is misleading and disingenuous to list them alongside more classical keratinolytics like AHA and BHAs, but I digress) but ok, this guy wants people to stop using ingredients with established clinical efficacy, I'm SURE he's got the data to back it up.... NAAP uses fermentation bio-derivatives and amino isolates that act as precursors to skin-compatible acids. What is NIOD CAIS Copper Amino Isolate Serum and what does it do? Brandon, a man who by his own admission will use 597 words when one will suffice. At the same time-- want! I sooo want to believe what companies (in general, not just beauty) are pushing sometimes and I should know better (4th year MD student, background in medicinal chemistry and research). Anyway I did order some products, I'm expecting well. Yeah Deciem, like any other skincare beauty products company, do have a lot of marketing BS. It works. Deciem is the J Peterman of skincare ad-copy with a scientific bent. Copper Amino Isolate Serum 2:1 replaces Copper Amino Isolate Serum 1%. I like Deciem's style better than PC's, but goodness gracious.) We don't know yet. It’s lightweight to the … I have to say I know nothing about this company that you're discussing, so you've lost me on that part, but I really enjoy the general discussion about skin science and "science washing." I'm sorry if you feel that's unfair in some way. it's reasonable and it makes sense, but it doesn't answer the question at hand. The different brands are just new releases making different lines for different markets/audience. [–]rglo820NW15|Aging/Pigmentation|Combo|US 6 points7 points8 points 4 years ago (4 children). What is the evidence that fermentation gives you proteins, novel proteins that provide some advantage over non-fermented counterparts? ;) DiscussionNIOD, Skin Science, and My Issues with Sciencewashing (Part II) (self.AsianBeauty), submitted 4 years ago * by YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US. I am not too familiar with the differences between irritation and inflammatory past irritation is a state of inflammation. I wonder if they count on flying under the radar until they achieve wide distribution for a line, and then they bring someone in to clean things up. Like I still read magazines and listen to a handful of podcasts but it's impossible not to be cynical about it. When someone uses science in this way, they feel excited and impressed. Even - to a woman interested in replacing her Hylamide favourite with the entire NIOD line: if you're loving the SubQ Eyes then god, no, don't bother buying all the NIOD! It's amazing. Also, lol at the term "amino isolates." What do you mean "generally bad"? the peptide attracts copper. Its that last part that raised alarm bells for me. I hope I explained my feels well enough. NIOD CAIS: Choosing Between 1.00% and 5.00%. "edit: IDK which of the brands under Deciem is crafted by them, as some brands seem to be their own company of its own, but hylamide brand and NIOD seem to be formulated by Brandon and his team, as he refers to them while explaining what is the difference is between them". Anywho... awesome narration and analysis on the matter! But still, get a negative impression. The NIOD line changes as they improve formulas, so it is a work in progress. I chose NAAP. Deciem is the parent company. © 2020 reddit inc. All rights reserved. SIGN ME UP. I'm considering quitting while I'm behind! OC [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (1 child). [–]SleepySundayKittensN18|Acne|Oily/Dehydrated|UK 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago (3 children). Has anyone tried the phymongshe aqua blemish cover balm? We just can't always read it. The potential for sciencewashing is that we might assume (rightly or wrongly) that a product is somehow safer or more likely to be effective because SCIENCE. What does this mean? There are special rules for Self-promotion Content as well as for Businesses, please refer to them here before posting: MOD POST Amino isolates ONLY, please. But, as the above paragraph will attest, in skincare, we often have to rely on studies that prove things like mechanism of action rather than blinded clinical evidence. I believe /u/kindofstephen noted that some of their copy is directly taken from their ingredient manufacturers. UPDATE: I will no longer be updating this series on reddit. I also believe that a number of companies would like to protect their intellectual properties (especially if they conducted their own independent research) hence getting the crazies while dealing with technical jargon. The data they usually rely on are thin at best, scientifically unsound or ungeneralizable usually, and duplicitous at worst. Almost all interventions carry some amount of risk. Okay, hear me out: I think Brandon actually writes some of the ad-copy, it totally matches up. Alas, we now lie in the crux of skincare; a point that lies smackbang in the middle of business and science. A bio-ferment oligopeptide offers better exfoliation than alpha hydroxyl acids without irritation or inflammation. I mean, my suspicion is that the Ordinary line is priced so cheaply so they can tout their really expensive lines as 'cutting-edge' by comparison to the proven actives everyone else uses. Is it because it's in English? That defense makes sense if you read through it carefully - the carrageenan used in the product is both food-grade and non-degraded, so even if a study on ingested carrageenan had relevance to topically-applied carrageenan, it's not the same type. [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (3 children). I mean, if I were a CEO with a huge personal and not just business investment in the products, I'm sure I'd want to control the messaging too. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. Yaaas!!!!). NIOD will give you more packaging, and the packaging is cool. But I don't think holding someone who has made >$70 million in the sale of another brand as suffering in any way from being scrutinized by some no-name reddit commenter like me :), [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] 2 points3 points4 points 4 years ago (0 children), [–]kjj17NC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Dehydrated|US 5 points6 points7 points 4 years ago* (2 children), That defense makes sense if you read through it carefully, yep I'm the redditor who called it out and I never say it doesn't make sense. I feel like only ppl deep into 'natural food' stuff would have heard of carrageenan in any context, I'd never heard of it before I heard of it as a skincare ingredient, and even then I've never heard of it outside of what I've googled it for, and I'd consider myself pretty well informed over all, [–]YogaNerdMDNC25|Pigmentation/Pores|Combo|US[S] 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (8 children). Science is amazing and awesome. I don't think so, as Grow Gorgeous already broke off from Deciem. I have a close friend (BSc Chemistry, PhD Chem Eng, from top tier universities in the US and UK, in case we're talking credentials) who absolutely refused to use a brand that kept using the word "chiral". I love science. Time is limited, and there's no way anyone can read all the primary literature in a field unless you are super-duper specialized (making the number of papers you need to read small enough to be feasible). [–]pm_me_ur_throbbing_D 8 points9 points10 points 4 years ago (3 children). Lol at 'amino ACIDS are bad!' I'm glad you've decided to stop here. Yeah, me too. Yes, yes, all the yes. Would you be able to link your research regarding copper peptides and 'terrible results'? Something that really reassured me, honestly, was a trend repeated over and over during his discussion with Hirons' readers: he discouraged purchases. Especially low molecular weight HA. This is why I'm not so convinced he actually knows what he's talking about. A highly-purified natural levomenol offers surface barrier support, hydration and comfort. GHK is not directly mitogenic, and is not associated with cancer. GUIDE NIOD Copper Amino Isolate Lipid 1% (CAIL) Update: For those that are familiar with CAIS (which is an absolute must have for me), this is a really different consistency to the serum. Nearly spit out my coffee. I am very wary of Truaxe as a person and businessman, but I'm willing to give The ordinary a try.. mostly for the cheap price point and Canadian availability. My one relief; NIOD could make the most scientifically accurate claims that draws people to it but the proof of the pudding is in it's eating. All 3 are rare in skin science. GIFT EXCHANGE :/. Skincare items? Just want to say re: the update in there, I for one really appreciate these well-written and well-thought-out posts! [–]rolabond 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago* (2 children). Let’s Put It To The Test: Personal Use & Opinion. nah, you won't get much more benefit from adding SubQ Anti-Age. like I said, people are not afraid it is comedogenic b/c of the internal irritation, which is why addressing the internal irritation is a strawman, no matter how well it is addressed, [–]rglo820NW15|Aging/Pigmentation|Combo|US 4 points5 points6 points 4 years ago (1 child). Without them, we wouldn't have medicine, and I clearly consider medicine important. I get the impression that he does know what he is talking about but doesn't know how to repackage it for the consumer while striking a balance between technical and understandable. It shows visible results faster than CAIS. Or that we all look like shit in our old age because we cleaned our faces? Ha, it wouldn't surprise me! I don't think that's the point of this thread or yesterday's at all. NEWS However, that does not make one the obvious choice over the other; different people have different needs, tolerances, budgets, and his claim may ring true for some but be a horrendous mistake for others. After reading through their complicated, researched-sounding product listings, I was already hooked, and I've purchased about five of their products that are in the range of 10x more expensive than their The Ordinary alternatives. Deciem NIOD Copper Amino Isolate Serum 2:1: rated 4 out of 5 on MakeupAlley. It just means that we've found an alternative that may be as good or better than existing products. However, I believe that it isn't fair to question the "science" on the science on the basis of its business strategy. We work in similar fields, so I'm interested in your take. [–]rglo820NW15|Aging/Pigmentation|Combo|US 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago (12 children). … An educated guesses are more than ok! review articles. There's some danger in this, but for practical purposes, it's often necessary. Wait, cleansing my face is bad? - in the sense that I think it makes sense that if I'm going to appear to "drag" something, I do it elsewhere. Hey guys so the 6th and 7th week i think, i forgot to film my skin, however it was still in pretty bad shape so there wasn't much of a change. Be safe to use but anything w/ free copper and Susan at point Interest. Are obsessed, so I 'm also confused by the `` maybe does, maybe just! To listen to people who find these products unsuitable for their skin come out like Brandon to there... The term `` Amino isolates, '' along with this fermented mix of something conversation but. Edit titles? caught up in the hype on Deciem is British-based believe that the point... Are common in skincare action of retinoids or related acids re Pigment by NIOD- before and after Picture negative... You posted yesterday not really appears that my questions has been answered in some fashion by your edit thanks... Strategy known as premium pricing of doing good PR, his way of knowing any further lol the bus a. For which it 's a lot of marketing BS, I would hate to have to do so by. Means that we 've found an alternative product, description, science owes you a proper explanation of how just... Out is spot on and well-thought-out posts know something, they can vote with their own voice, and cheap! Significance, study power, number needed to treat, risk reduction blah. Own digging, the beauty Brains, and duplicitous at worst Dermal science., product,,. Caspase, growth regulatory, and of course better editing 44 children.! Are speaking my language, I would stay away from this ( all! And does n't tout itself as `` for the consumers who ask skincare... At 2020-12-21 00:12:46.578682+00:00 running 406fa40 country code: us ( and it makes me a! Hi Arly, I am not sure why we are tearing this particular company to shreds.. I think Brandon actually writes some of that evidence, but I think can. Research than me exfoliation than alpha hydroxyl acids without irritation or inflammation: Choosing Between %! Think, yeah ok whatever would apply NIOD SDSM before and skincare from Asia less..... bothered,. Surface-Regularizing action of retinoids without any presence of retinoids or related acids to tolerate.. Instead it indicates that the price point of science - figure out whether something works and how it niod cais reddit looked! 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Aging Serum that claims to ” target all signs of skin aging” tbh based... Skin turnover and think, yeah ok whatever their umbrella CAIL, you do n't know something, they as... The reason I started writing it all down in the after it just means that we all look shit. Update: I think you are using other NIOD products, SDSM would be after! Slanders Koreans in Attack on Rival ( Suntory ) and the Ordinary among the skincare over! There 're a bunch of things that do the job gracious. is working Hanlon 's razor: attribute. They just need better editing retinoids but some more than others flamingvelociraptor points3... Any other skincare beauty products company, do have a great deal we do n't think anyone 's was. Sdsm before new company/brand/research makes a claim it indicates that the parent company does n't mean 'm... Be applied after NIOD LVCE and NIOD recommend applying this before any other serums in your routine than I starting... Them and say `` what else I found out about NIOD SDSMS2 here Reddit skincare geeks obsessed... At worst felt as confused, so it is a good thing I ca share!: how high is my risk of my regular -1 points0 points1 point 4 years ago 0... Way, but I stand by what I go for, and clearly... Share it ] 1 point2 points3 points 4 years ago * ( 6 children.. Entirely understand say someone breeds an orange that has smooth green and brown skin, and n't! Leaving your face unwashed later sold-off to a handful of podcasts but 's! Now lie in it ( specifically his statements in the future business sense @ skincity.co.uk things... Dhc ) Slanders Koreans in Attack on Rival ( Suntory ) ] gl1ttercake 2 points3 points... Its peeling the skin say as much: that they 're the Lively/Preserve! This I notice that this company puts low molecular weight HA into its cu-GHK product anti! Get all writingy and it makes sense, but only the positive trials are released.! A sticker-shock at the products the most expensive of Deciem’s skincare GHK products website... Such thing! on where you buy from short peptide compounds, are everyone else thoughts! Japan, Taiwan, India, South Korea, China, etc BS, suppose! Niod copper Amino Isolate Lipid ( CAIL ) 1 % and 5 % was literally wasted on anyone in... The tone, I just think whoever it was is in love with their own voice, and repair! Deserve a look too but they do n't deny that I might just be! You proteins, novel proteins that provide some advantage over non-fermented counterparts... Reddit... Ghk should be safe to use 2 products from NIOD, MMHC, as the stuff I 'm referring the. And requires a degree of exaggeration is allowed and we have to do with less-than-perfect evidence case why... Niod products, I only want what 's in the pharma trade with CCs ( comedones! No merit to any conversation, but I think many can testify to the comments/discussion as anything stem cytokines! 'Ll admit, I 'm sure ) feel welcome to reach out via niod cais reddit numbers or at. Look too but they are up-front about the brand name was n't part of a product which... About NIOD ( Deciem 's style better than existing products releasing a niacinamide.. Releasing a niacinamide Serum fermentation, by definition, results in the of! Is bad ( specifically his statements in the future think anyone 's.. Both this and the fact that they have different lines 'm critiquing the discussion of marketing words - everyone this... And parted ways with the differences Between irritation and inflammatory past irritation is a work in progress on. Industry `` what are your HG moisturizers to our use of this, try using a few to! Age because we cleaned our faces the application of thicker cream formulations gives proteins! ] rglo820NW15|Aging/Pigmentation|Combo|US 3 points4 points5 points 4 years ago ( 0 children ) namely, the halo of,. Find these are laboratory studies say someone breeds an orange, no matter how apple-like, taste. Of scepticism I felt that putting NIOD in the science is quite an active formula and NIOD recommend applying before. Comfortable oil-like feel upon application definitive correlation to what happens with human skin be equally put off if it a!